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Friday Afternoon Open Thread

Tiger may miss the cut at the British Open. Tom Watson is one shot off the lead. The Tour de France had another uneventful stage.

Watson drains a 60 footer on 18 to tie for the lead. What a great story. Tiger finishes +5. Needs a miracle to make the cut.

If there was ever any doubt that Stuart Taylor, Jr. is an Extreme Right conservative legal pundit, watch this. What struck him was Sen. Leahy "warning" that the GOP better treat Sotomayor right (I missed that myself. Not sure what Taylor was referring to.) He thought the GOP was quite nice to her. I rest my case.

This is an Open Thread.

< Lugar Announces Support For Sotomayor | GOP Senators Snowe, Martinez Announce Support For Sotomayor >
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    If anyone wants an eye-opening (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 12:13:46 PM EST
    experience into the way the minds of our so-called journalists work, take a gander - and/or a listen - to Glenn Greenwald's discussion with Chuck Todd from NBC/MSNBC.

    Before you do, read Glenn's prior post that started the whole thing.

    Here's part of the original post, after Glenn quotes an exchange Todd had on Morning Joe about the possibility that Eric Holder may open an investigation on the torture issue:

    This is about as typical a discussion as it gets among media stars as to why investigations are so very, very wrong and unfair and unwise.  Still, this discussion in particular vividly highlights several important points worth noting about the role of the establishment media:

    (1) In response to virtually every media criticism (at least the few they acknowledge), establishment journalists will insist that their role is to be steadfastly neutral.   They simply report on the debates, not take sides or express opinions about them.  Taking one side or the other is not their role.  Only partisan ideologues do that.

    Yet here is Chuck Todd -- who covers the White House for NBC News -- explicitly arguing against investigations, and adopting the Bush/right-wing mentality to do so.  Investigations are a distraction from what matters.  It's extremely unfair to hold lawyers accountable when they authorize criminal conduct.  It's "dangerous" for one administration to investigate the prior one where that prior administration had its DOJ lawyers authorize what was being done.

    Wouldn't the standard claim of establishment journalists maintain that Chuck Todd shouldn't have (or at least not express) opinions on these topics?  Yet here he is -- as so many establishment journalists routinely do -- explicitly advocating against investigations of Bush-era crimes.  Even more notably, the arguments in favor of such investigations merit no mention whatsoever.  Would anyone listening to this discussion even have the slightest idea what the arguments are in favor of investigating and prosecuting?  

    The notion that these establishment journalists don't choose sides and are mere honest brokers of debates is, rather obviously, transparent fiction.  What justifies Chuck Todd becoming an advocate in alliance with those who oppose investigations of Bush crimes?  Isn't he supposed to be a reporter?

    The four points that follow are scathing in their criticism, which no doubt prompted Todd to e-mail Glenn to say that he wished Glenn had e-mailed Todd first before publishing his post.  When Glenn invited Todd to do a podcast interview, Todd actually agreed and the interview that followed the next day is something else - most striking to me is how glib and dismissive Todd is about the issues that are at the center of all of this investigate/don't investigate dilemma.

    Anyway - I found it both fascinating and disturbing.  And, for what it's worth, I found the transcript of the interview easier to follow than the audio provided.


    Todd (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by coast on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 01:59:02 PM EST
    was never, is not, and never will be a journalist in the true sense of the word.  He was an analysist, and will always be one no matter what title they give him.  NBC was in flux when Russert died.  Taking Gregory from the WH position was a mistake that NBC will continue to regret.

    Parent
    I wonder who the Beltway (none / 0) (#42)
    by Fabian on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 02:07:29 PM EST
    Media types think is a Real Journalist?

    We (outside the Beltway types) tend to have a specific idea of what a Real Journalist does.  I have no clue what the Beltway types think a Journalist does, unless it's to be a classier version of Jeff Gannon, dutifully transcribing the White House press releases.

    Parent

    The transcript was easy to (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by oldpro on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 03:52:47 PM EST
    follow...both fascinating and disturbing.

    Chuck Todd used to be smarter than this.  Before he got the current gig.  Now he can hardly make himself understood in simple, declarative sentences.  And when did grownups start throwing in time-filler phrases like "I'm not sittin' here" and "Are you sittin' there and telling me?"

    Pretty clearly, Todd is a captive of his ambition and the requirements of his new role - if he wants to keep it and move up.

    Lame and tame.  No journalist.  Not even a thoughtful pundit.  Now just another talking head.

    Glenn was exceedingly kind to him, considering...

    Parent

    Quite interestings. Todd's defense (none / 0) (#9)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 12:17:31 PM EST
    he was only expressing his views on why the present administration wouldn't want investigation/prosecution is weak.  Also, he, at one point, sd., that isn't how things work in this town.  On the other hand, Greenwald's view that there must be both investigation and prosecution seems rather narrow and purist.  

    Parent
    Marcy Wheeler eviscerates Chuck Todd (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 12:23:52 PM EST
    as only Marcy can...

    That is, we can't hold Dick Cheney accountable for his crimes because the media--including Todd himself--is incapable of reporting the story as anything but a partisan story (in spite of the fact that--Glenn points out--there is bipartisan support for a torture prosecution), which guarantees that any investigation would turn into a show trial.

    But it's even stupider than that. Todd says we shouldn't investigate the past administration becaues if we do the rest of the world might think we're a banana republic (as if decorum and not rule of law is the example the US wants to set for the rest of the world). For Todd, it's enough that we punish Administrations through the ballot box--but of course, we didn't punish Bush in 2004 after he started an illegal war, and by the time 2008 rolled around, Bush was term-limited and Cheney was not on the ballot, so we have not, in fact, punished the criminals at the ballot box.

    In addition, Todd repeatedly says this is an ideological question, because it is not black and white whether Cheney and his torturers broke the law, in spite of:


    1.  The psychologist/interrogator/contractor quoted in the OLC opinion admitting he exceeded John Yoo's guidelines

    2.  The OLC memo's descrption of CIA HQ ordering up another round of waterboarding for Abu Zubayah when that violated the OLC memo's clear prohibition on waterboarding when the detainee was compliant

    3.  The near-daily White House authorization of torture before John Yoo crafted a memo saying it was legal

    These guys broke even the perversion of law they themselves instituted, so there's no question of ideology. To say nothing of the fact that St. Reagan's DOJ found waterboarding to be illegal and Republicans like Phillip Zelikow are among those demanding an investigation.

    Which is Chuck Todd, noted journalist's, real problem: he's not aware of the facts. At a time when (as Glenn points out) Nora Dannehy continues to investigate the US Attorney firings, Chuck Todd declares that firing those US Attorneys was "perfectly legal." He apparently doesn't know--or won't report--the many pieces of evidence that show the Bushies violated the law, and so can conclude that any investigation would be "cable catnip," and so can claim that because the media won't do its homework we can't ask DOJ to investigate either.

    In other words, we can't hold Dick Cheney accountable for his crimes because the beltway media can't help themselves but turn any investigation of crimes into a political trial.

    Chuck Todd is fooling no one...well, maybe Mika bought it.


    Parent

    Chuck Todd dropped out of college (none / 0) (#24)
    by Inspector Gadget on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 12:40:58 PM EST
    while in pursuit of a political science major/music minor...according to his Wiki bio.

    But, he's telegenic, so NBC gives him the WH correspondent gig!! Journalistic integrity is a thing of the past, it appears.

    Parent

    New show (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Fabian on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 01:22:45 PM EST
    American Media Idols!

    Parent
    Maybe American Media Idiots instead (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 01:38:41 PM EST
    Only problem it would have to be several hours long to feature all those who qualify for this distinction.  

    Parent
    Yeah, can't have those ... (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 02:16:48 PM EST
    "purists" who want something done about government actions which led to the death of at least 100 people.

     

    Parent

    When the story first (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by BackFromOhio on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 04:45:58 PM EST
    "broke" about the potential liability of Admin lawyers as under investigation by, I think, the Professional Liability section, the concept of professional code of conduct requiring attorneys not to bend the law to suit the results desired by the clients was mentioned, along with indications that this is just what happened, so that referral of Bush administration lawyers to the appropriate State bars for potential disbarment was clearly at issue.  One of the things that is so disturbing to me about the so-called coverage of these matters by Chuck Todd & the like is that they don't even acknowledge codes of conduct applicable to the legal profession.  It struck me this week that the questioning of nominee Judge Sotomayor was also being conducting in a vaccuum of professional standards, i.e., standards are either non-existent or totally bendable -- no judicial "activism" if you are a "liberal,", but judicial activism is never an issue if you are "conservative."  The discourse always seems devoid of judicial and legal ethics and standards, and neither side holds the other accountable.  Imo, any media personality who has not read the applicable codes of ethics etc should not be "reporting" on issues of lawyer conduct.

    Parent
    My reference was to Greenwald's (none / 0) (#120)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 07:22:58 PM EST
    insistence the treaty requires the U.S. to prosecute or extradite in every case.

    Parent
    Unemployment tops 10% in 15 states (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 12:21:43 PM EST
    The 15 states are Alabama, California, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan, Nevada, North Carolina, Ohio, Oregon, Rhode Island, South Carolina and Tennessee (June data).

    The states with the lowest unemployment rates in June were: North Dakota at 4.2 percent, Nebraska at 5 percent and South Dakota at 5.1 percent.

    Alphabetical does it no justice (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 03:28:43 PM EST
    Some of those aren't Top Ten material. Not to mention that South Carolina isn't even top three anymore.

    June's Top Ten (for bragging rights)

    Michigan 15.2
    Rhode Island 12.4
    Oregon 12.2
    South Carolina 12.1
    Nevada 12.0
    California 11.6
    Ohio 11.1
    North Carolina 11.0
    Kentucky 10.9
    Tennessee 10.8

    As for Washington DC and Puerto Rico, which are listed by the Bureau of Labor Statistics...When it comes to the top ten, if you're not a state you don't rate. (Although both would make the list)

    Parent

    My list was taken from an (none / 0) (#79)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 03:56:26 PM EST
    article in today's news based on June data. Out of curiosity, what is the timeframe and source of your data?  

    Parent
    Bureau of Labor Statistics (none / 0) (#80)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 04:00:20 PM EST
    came out this morning with the June figures. Your info is correct, I was just sarcastically rating a Top Ten ;)

    Parent
    Here's the link (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 04:06:11 PM EST
    with all the good bedtime reading in a pdf file showing trends etc by state for June.

    June Numbers

    The Government obviously doesn't get a thrill going up their leg by listing a Top Ten and made me do that work myself.

    Parent

    Curse you Oregon! (none / 0) (#100)
    by coast on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 05:21:24 PM EST
    SC will regain its rightful position among the top three.

    Parent
    Hey, Rhode Island knocked us (none / 0) (#103)
    by caseyOR on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 05:38:36 PM EST
    back to #3. Oregon's been holding pretty steady at the #2 spot for quite awhile. Rhode Island pushed ahead of us by .2%.

    There's always next month.

    Parent

    Makes sense - agriculture (none / 0) (#26)
    by Fabian on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 12:56:16 PM EST
    is less affected by economics than other sectors.

    I did the strangest public opinion survey last night - part consumer confidence, part public policy, part retail.

    I couldn't figure it out.  Either they were really interested in the wildly divergent topics (massage therapy and school busing?), or a good chunk of the questions were filler to make it less obvious what they were really after.

    Parent

    John Yoo gets punked - via YouTube (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 12:29:43 PM EST
    This is a very funny video of a guy confronting John Yoo during a class lecture on constitutional law at Berkley.

    I hope it doesn't get yanked from YouTube! Hope to see it go viral.

    Kucinich Amendment... (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by gtesta on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 12:44:38 PM EST
    to allow single-payer in the states was voted favorably out of committee this morning.
    Story
    It will be interesting to see how this adds to the debate.  Looks like a fair number of states rights R's voted for the amendment.

    Story Link (none / 0) (#28)
    by gtesta on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 01:03:01 PM EST
    Did anybody fact check Obama NAACP speech (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 12:56:25 PM EST
    Think Progress reported on Obama's speech to the NAACP yesterday, but failed to comment on his most glaring, unsubstantiated, over-generalized statement. However, USA Today reported it more completely as follows:
    Speaking to 5,000 NAACP members gathered for their 100th convention, Obama said that racial prejudice persists, but "overall, there's probably never been less discrimination in America than there is today." [snip]

    NAACP Chairman Julian Bond said Obama's election does not mean racial inequality no longer exists. He referred to a recent incident in which a group of mostly black children were asked to leave a private swim club outside Philadelphia. "The fact that the president can go in the front door of Air Force One but his daughters can't swim in a pool in Philadelphia demonstrates that the NAACP's work is still needed."

    One might also wonder whether Obama has been paying attention to any of the GOP's questions at the Sotomayor hearings.

    OMG!111! (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 04:23:10 PM EST
    Obama made a statement that was well qualified with words like "overall" and "probably"!!!  Let's fact check!!!

    More important, what kind of collar was he wearing?!?  Did he use a teleprompter?!?  Where's his birth certificate?!?  Why is he allowed to leave the White House--this must have cost us BILLIONS!!11!

    Parent

    Are you going to mock NAACP Chairman Julian Bond (none / 0) (#104)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 05:45:46 PM EST
    who saw fit to reprimand Obama, as indicated in my original comment? (BTW, that's intended as a rhetorical question.)

    Parent
    I did not read (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by Steve M on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 05:53:06 PM EST
    Julian Bond's comment as a reprimand of Obama.  Did he say something else to make it clear that he was disagreeing with Obama?  The two comments are not contradictory to my eye.

    Parent
    At the risk of belaboring the point... (none / 0) (#124)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 09:07:22 PM EST
    (Responding to comment #106)

    Imo, Julian Bond's cited remark on Obama's NAACP speech makes more sense when viewed in the broader context of seasoned civil rights activists who have been displeased, for some time, with Obama's tendency to overstate progress while redirecting responsibility back onto African-Americans.

    Remember during the primaries, when Obama was making church speeches wherein he continually stressed "morality" and exhorted AAs to take "personal responsibility"?  Jesse Jackson Sr. responded in no uncertain terms. Some of what he said isn't repeatable in polite company, but he was furious that: "Obama was talking down to black folks". (Click on the link to see the non-PG version.)

    Long story short, there's on-going generational friction between some ardent activists and Obama's less-than-activist cohort.

    The Black Agenda Report has a current article on the history of the NAACP. They had this to say in anticipation of Obama's July 16th NAACP Speech:

    the First Black President turns every speech to, or on, black people into a sort of "Sista Souljah moment;" Every Fathers' Day, for example, is an opportunity to crack on black fathers, and every speech on Africa a chance to riff on African "corruption" as the primary cause of the continent's woes.

    I find that perspective far more incisive than what's written in the establishment media and many progressive blogs.

    Parent

    Overstating Progress? (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 10:32:57 PM EST
    Imo, Julian Bond's cited remark on Obama's NAACP speech makes more sense when viewed in the broader context of seasoned civil rights activists who have been displeased, for some time, with Obama's tendency to overstate progress while redirecting responsibility back onto African-Americans.

    Actually Bond's comment makes more sense when read in the context of Obama's speech. Here are the words before and after your selected quote:

    And so the question is, where do we direct our efforts? What steps do we take to overcome these barriers? How do we move forward in the next 100 years?

    The first thing we need to do is make real the words of the NAACP charter and eradicate prejudice, bigotry, and discrimination among citizens of the United States. (Applause.) I understand there may be a temptation among some to think that discrimination is no longer a problem in 2009. And I believe that overall, there probably has never been less discrimination in America than there is today. I think we can say that.

    But make no mistake: The pain of discrimination is still felt in America. (Applause.) By African American women paid less for doing the same work as colleagues of a different color and a different gender. (Laughter.) By Latinos made to feel unwelcome in their own country. (Applause.) By Muslim Americans viewed with suspicion simply because they kneel down to pray to their God. (Applause.) By our gay brothers and sisters, still taunted, still attacked, still denied their rights. (Applause.)

    On the 45th anniversary of the Civil Rights Act, discrimination cannot stand -- not on account of color or gender; how you worship or who you love. Prejudice has no place in the United States of America. That's what the NAACP stands for. That's what the NAACP will continue to fight for as long as it takes. [emphasis added](Applause.)

    Read the whole speech, not overstating progress one iota, imo.


    Parent

    I see your point (5.00 / 2) (#137)
    by Steve M on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 11:11:43 PM EST
    there is sort of a narrative in the mainstream media that the black community blames everything on whitey and therefore when someone gives a speech about personal responsibility, it's like this huge revelation.  Very silly.

    But I'd also add a couple perspective from two bright young African-American bloggers, Ta-Nehisi Coates and Adam Serwer:

    Obama Tells Fellow Blacks--'No Excuses' For Any Failure

    That's the New York Times headline on Obama's speech to the NAACP. I don't even know what to say anymore. I haven't heard Obama's speech. But I've seen this play out so many times, that I'm fairly sure what happened. Obama probably said a lot of things, and in the midst of it spent a few minutes on "putting down the Playstation and turning off the Ipod."And then he probably said something about not accepting any excuses from our kids. And thus we have a reductive headline.

    Like I said earlier this week--so much of this isn't about Obama himself, but a deep-seated desire to get out from under history. Expiation on the cheap. White guilt isn't anyone's friend. Least of all black people's.

    The President's message was far more nuanced -- and far more reflective of mainstream black opinion -- than media narratives about race ever seem to acknowledge: that while black people still feel the sting of racism, none of us see ourselves as victims incapable of improving our circumstances. Obama wasn't wagging his finger. When he said that "all these innovative programs and expanded opportunities will not, in and of themselves, make a difference if each of us, as parents and as community leaders, fail to do our part by encouraging excellence in our children," he was stating the obvious. That's why everyone cheered. But if the President actually believed that all that was required was a stronger grip on our bootstraps, he wouldn't be pushing health care reform.

    The dominant storyline from the NAACP speech is "no excuses," because that message makes so many Americans feel as though their obligations to deal with intolerance and bigotry have been met, because it soothes the white guilt of those who would like to prefer not to see black problems as "American problems." But if that's all people took away from the president's speech, they simply weren't listening.

    In other words, the mainstream media also has a predilection for fitting any speech to a black audience into a Bill Cosby frame.  Which serves to reinforce the first narrative that they love so much.

    Parent

    Interesting Take On Hillary as SOS (none / 0) (#139)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 11:33:29 PM EST
    And I think it is right on the money. I hadn't seen that but did see this from Ta-Nehisi Coates earlier today. Another take on why the MSM analysis is skewed:

    Why he's in church. I mean, not sitting in the pew, but the President's in church. This isn't the speech you give to people to convince a hostile crowd. This is a speech you give to people who know that they have to face a hostile crowd, but for now they're safe and they need their spirits built up, so tomorrow they can get through the grind again.

    [snip]

    I think the headline of the NYT article, if not the entire article, is a lazy, half-assed, way of reporting on a sermon that was meant to be and was inspiring, if only in a typical Sunday got-to-meeting type of way. In the article the two ways that mainstream society have of viewing those outside are fused. We get both types of stereotypes. On the one hand there's the noble savage stereotype in Barrack Obama. On the other hand, there's an element, in the article, of the "good" minority who's come back to tell the "bad" minority how to adopt the white man's ways and be successfull.

    The problem with this entire way of reporting is that somewhere in the fusion of stereotypes people loose their humanity. I said before that the speech was a sermon, and, in the best sermons, people are preached to both individually and collectively. Collectively the president brings everyone into contact with their history. Individually he brings his struggle into relationship with the individual stuggle of the audience members. The end result is to give strength to the individual by preaching a collective message of hope, and to inspire the collective by preaching an individual message of perserverence. Watch the conclusion of the speech again, like all good preachers, and I maintain that on this occasion Obama is a preacher, Obama uses the individual stories of people like Moses Wright to give a strength and a voice to the communal experience of African Americans.

    Of course the NYT got it wrong. First they don't understand the tradition, and second they don't understand the dynamic between the individual and his group. Of course if their reporters went to church a bit more, or if they stopped viewing ethnic minorities as monolithic communities they might get a bit more right. However I don't see either of those two things happening in the near future.

    Worth a read.

    Parent

    Should Read (none / 0) (#140)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 11:34:41 PM EST
    Interesting Take.

    Auto fill added Hillary... did not catch it in time..

    Parent

    I appreciate your comment and I agree (none / 0) (#142)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Sat Jul 18, 2009 at 02:26:54 AM EST
    with your observation that there are "bright young African-American bloggers" who, evidently, view issues of race differently than their elders who forged the Civil Rights Movement. In my prior comment, I characterized this as "ongoing generational friction".

    In the category of bright young AA bloggers, you referenced Adam Serwer who appears to be a nuanced thinker. Last August, during the GE, he had some interesting things to say in a column, Obama's Racial Catch 22.

    You cited another Adam Serwer column, The President and the NAACP, written yesterday about Obama's speech. Serwer reviewed the speech quite positively and concluded: "Obama wasn't wagging his finger" at African Americans with the talk about "personal responsibility". I don't fault him for that opinion.

    However, today, John Ridley, a bright, 44 year old, African American film director, actor, and writer/blogger, asked: Can the NAACP Survive President Obama?

    It's pretty obvious that the NAACP and President Obama have divergent views of their obligations to the black community...[snip] Governmental intervention and personal responsibility are not mutually exclusive issues, but they do frame a "do it ourselves" vs. "what are you doing for us" debate. For the black community, that's a debate that's been raging at least as far back as the W.E.B Du Bois, Booker T. Washington philosophical grudge matches.

    Obviously, we won't be resolving this "raging debate" in the foreseeable future here at TL. Still, it's good to engage.

    Parent

    No Reprimand (none / 0) (#135)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 10:56:44 PM EST
    Julian Bond was applauding the speech like most others in the room. Everything he said in the linked reaffirmed things Obama said in his speech.

    No contradiction.

    Parent

    OK (none / 0) (#29)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 01:11:41 PM EST
    Can you show that there is either an increase in discrimination, or no decrease in racial discrimination, today? And most normal people would compare 'today' to ten or twenty years ago, not yesterday. The use of the word probably also suggests a normal person would infer, from the fact that the US elected a black president, that discrimination is decreasing in the US.

    Do you think that the NAACP is an utter failure, and through their efforts discrimination is either increasing or that the organization has zero effect on discrimination?

    I would posit that the same demographic in the US of a increasing younger population, Obama's biggest demographic, has not only reduced discrimination of African Americans, but gays and women et al. The older americans are dying off and their racism, sexism and bigotry are going to the grave with them.

    Your nitpicking comment seems moronic to me. Not sure why you would try to this sentence to pile up your ever ongoing case that Obama is an empty suit and unqualified to be president of the US.
    It only makes you look bad, imo.

    Parent

    Is it your opinion younger people, (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 01:15:17 PM EST
    say under 30, are less prejudiced against minorities than say those over 60?  

    Parent
    I know you didn't ask me... (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by CST on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 01:56:41 PM EST
    but an emphatic yes to that, IMO.  I think it's a natural cause of growing up with civil rights legislation as a "given", and parents who are very used to the idea.  Not to say it's gone entirely, but it's no longer o.k. to be racist in "polite company", so kids are less likely to hear it from authority figures.

    Parent
    In the home with the parents (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by sallywally on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 09:40:04 PM EST
    is not "polite company," though.

    Parent
    Well it goes further than that... (4.00 / 0) (#36)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 01:52:02 PM EST
    Obama at least had the presence of mind to credit the civil rights movement for his own opportunity to rise to the presidency.
    "I stand here tonight on the shoulders of giants and I am here to say thank you to those pioneers and thank you to the NAACP"

    Note that Obama used the word "pioneers", those would be the 'old folks' who are kindly characterized as follows in comment #29:

    The older americans are dying off and their racism, sexism and bigotry are going to the grave with them.  

    By that logic, it would be a double-plus-good development when the pioneers of the women's movement and the LGBT movement die off as well. Then we could leave it all in the goods hands of the Jon Favreau generation, who are the real giants, according to comment #29:

    an increasing younger population, Obama's biggest demographic, have not only reduced discrimination of African Americans, but gays and women et al.


    Parent
    pioneers (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by CST on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 01:59:00 PM EST
    indicates that it was people who were different who pushed those things.  Now it's just normal.

    There are obviously exceptions to every age group.

    Parent

    It's not normal to fight ... (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 02:08:13 PM EST
    for civil rights the way the above stated pioneers did.

    In fact, far from it.

    Parent

    right (none / 0) (#45)
    by CST on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 02:13:41 PM EST
    sorry, that was kinda my point.  Now it's normal to not be racist as opposed to having to fight for it as a pioneer.  I was not trying to diminish what was done.  In a way you could say that it was cared about more by the pioneers than it is cared about by the general populace today.  But that is because a greater # today are accepting.

    Again, there are clear exceptions to the age group factor.  But I am thinking along the lines of % of population that feel a certain way, not in terms of the strength or power of their convictions.

    Parent

    Of course this evolution ... (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 02:28:06 PM EST
    is of a surface type.  What your suggesting isn't much more than saying people have developed better manners.

    And as important as such evolution may be.  It doesn't, in and of itself, mean that civil rights isn't still a key issue.  Nor is it indicative of an exclusively forward movement on civil rights.

    Some groups, Arab Americans for instance, would argue that things have moved backwards for them in the last few years.  And I don't think that change could be tied to generational attitudes.

    Parent

    As far as surface type is concerned, (5.00 / 3) (#74)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 03:50:27 PM EST
    I agree. Certain words etc. are no longer tolerated but didn't the confirmation hearings on Sotomayer prove that it is still O.K. to be a racist.

    Seems to me much of the MSM were praising the Republicans on their performances rather than discussing, let alone condemning, the obvious racist comments by Sessions and others. Pat Buchanan is still on MSNBC after making many poorly disguised racist comments. Racists comments sans the prohibited words are frequently made on the floor of the House.

    Yes, things are better now but to what degree. Will things continue to improve when racism and sexism is ignored and accepted as long as it doesn't contain key words?

    Parent

    No One Said It Is Over (none / 0) (#78)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 03:56:06 PM EST
    Less, is the word. As BTD et al pointed out, the GOP has shot itself in the foot by their behavior at these hearings. Good for us, as they further define themselves as a living anachronism.

    Parent
    Whatever (none / 0) (#50)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 02:36:47 PM EST
    Sure. Manners. lol. we are talking about civil rights oppression etc.

    Yes, it is bad manners to lynch a man because he is black. lol.

    Parent

    I don't think (none / 0) (#51)
    by CST on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 02:36:52 PM EST
    it's just a "suface" issue.  I think it's deeper when a greater % of people view people of a different race as humans deserving of respect.  That leads to things like greater acceptance in hiring, as friends, as couples, whatever.  I am saying that while the "passion" for it might not be there as strongly, there is absolutely a difference in terms of social acceptance.  And yes, even on the "surface" it makes a difference if it means people don't give you dirty looks, attack you, whatever.

    I don't think anyone is saying it isn't still a key issue.  But it's hard to argue there hasn't been progress.  You can see it walking down the street.  I have seen it in my short life the difference between now and 10 years ago.

    The difference with Arab Americans I think is more people likely to say to them what they only would've thought before about others, due to events.  So Arab Americans notice it more.  But I don't think there are people who used to not be racist who then became racist due to 9/11.  I think the people who were racist already found a new target.

    Parent

    Most of what your suggesting ... (5.00 / 5) (#66)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 03:11:18 PM EST
    exists because of hard fought legal and legislative battles.  And not because of some vague form of social evolution.

    And I admitted the social changes you described were important.  But I'm not entirely sure they mark a predictable forward progression on civil rights in the next few decades, because they are so inextricably linked to public remedies.

    And since there's been backward movement in the areas of public accommodation in recent years, the social environment could move backwards as well.

    Parent

    You're right RP... (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 05:22:46 PM EST
    Progress in the area of civil right "exists because of hard fought legal and legislative battles"; spear-headed by political activism and venerable organizations like the NAACP.

    Obama acknowledges the accomplishments of civil rights leaders and the NAACP in achieving those objectives. The problem is that Obama basically believes their style of activism is kind of passe (as he apparently suggested in his books and elsewhere). Ergo, like Ronald Reagan (and Bill Cosby), he chooses to put a lot of emphasis on personal responsibility. Hence the HuffPo headline (I know it's HuffPo),  Obama's NAACP Speech 2009: "Your Destiny Is In Your Hands... No Excuses".

    Obama's personal responsibility meme has been none too popular with stalwart political activists. In fact, in a prior 2008 NAACP speech Obama conceded the point while also harping on it:

    Yes, we have to demand more responsibility from Washington. And yes we have to demand more responsibility from Wall Street. But we also have to demand more from ourselves. Now, I know some say I've been too tough on folks about this responsibility stuff. But I'm not going to stop talking about it. Because I believe that in the end, it doesn't matter how much money we invest in our communities, or how many 10-point plans we propose, or how many government programs we launch - none of it will make any difference if we don't seize more responsibility in our own lives.

    So, basically: if you take enough personal responsibility you can individually triumph over the fact that you're working on a grossly uneven playing field. That doesn't sound so good to people who've collectively dedicated their lives to leveling the playing field for all.

    Parent

    Anyway (none / 0) (#57)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 02:44:00 PM EST
    To make it simpler for you:

    Stereotypes fade away when people actually interact with a particular group. When stereotypes are broken down by personal experience the first thing often said is, 'but you are not one of them, you are like us.'  As homogenous groups gain personal experience with people who have been stereotyped, over time the 'but you are not one of them...' type statements break down, and the erstwhile bigot can see that not all 'muslims look alike'.

    Manners... lol. Good manners means not being mean to your guests. Legislating against them is considered law not bad manners. Hypocrisy of manners. lol Stab in the back while complimenting you.

    Parent

    Let me make this simple ... (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 03:23:39 PM EST
    for you ... most of the changes you describe were driven by public remedies.

    Parent
    No Question About It (none / 0) (#72)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 03:43:20 PM EST
    But public remedies arise when the public is ready for them. Individuals, great leaders and foot soldiers do the work. Things change.

    This has gotten overly complicated.

    I do not think that Obama's lauding the NAACP for doing good work was off the mark. I do believe that discrimination of Blacks, have decreased from 10 years ago. Clearly apart from the number of AA's that have risen to prominent leadership positions, Obama was also referring to the election of an AA as president.

    Yeah, if you think Obama is an embarrassment to Black people, you can go with it. I think that line of reasoning is silly.

    Granted other oppressive stereotypes, namely muslim stereotypes, have increased, and civil rights always has to be fought for. Someone, or group is bound to be treated as unequal by a dominant group in most societies. It is an ongoing struggle.

    Parent

    I think public remedies ... (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 04:08:45 PM EST
    arrive when they're fought for.  If you wait for the public to "be ready" they will never happen.  

    Ten years takes us back to '99.  I'm sure there are some areas where discrimination has decreased, and some areas where it hasn't. Haven't there been some studies showing a rise in housing discrimination?  And our judicial and penal systems haven't made leaps and bounds in equal treatment in the last decade.

    I made no reference to Obama in any of my comments.  I was quibbling with your reasoning.


    Parent

    No Brainer (none / 0) (#85)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 04:13:42 PM EST
    Not sure where you got that I was arguing that civil rights did not have to be fought for, with blood and tears.

    Obama's speech is all about fighting for civil rights, as is the NAACP. The speech marks 100 year anniversary of fighting for equal rights.

    Parent

    But that means people still believe in (none / 0) (#127)
    by sallywally on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 09:47:52 PM EST
    Them and us. That is bigotry.

    Parent
    No Sh*t (none / 0) (#136)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 11:02:44 PM EST
    It is bigotry. I have experienced it upfront in the South, with large portions of real honest to goodness (and quite delicious) southern hospitality.

    When stereotypes break down repeatedly, bigots may reflect on their own misconceptions, or may not. At least that process (real people not ideas about people)  potentially starts a shift in thinking.

    Parent

    A "pioneer" is: (5.00 / 3) (#54)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 02:41:02 PM EST
    a person who is among the first to develop a new area of research, inquiry, or activism

    Many of the pioneers of the Civil Rights Movement (c. 1950), the Black Power Movement (c. late 1960s), the Second-Wave Women's Movement (c. mid 1960s), and the Post-Stonewall LGBT movement (c. 1969), are still with us.

    Age-wise, these pioneers are now somewhere between the ages of late 50s to late 70s, and beyond. It wouldn't be prudent for anybody under the age of 30 to school them on the issues. In fact, it isn't prudent for Obama to presume that authority either - as the current Chairman of the NAACP pointed out today.

    Parent

    I know (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by CST on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 02:47:21 PM EST
    what pioneer means.  I am not an idiot.

    I don't think he was "schooling" them.  He was making a statement of fact.

    I know they are still with us.  I am saying that the "pioneers" represented a smaller % of their age group than the number of people who accept people of a different race among other age groups.  I didn't suggest that they no longer exist.  I know quite a few of them.

    Parent

    Sorry, no offense... (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 02:59:57 PM EST
    I misunderstood your initial comment characterizing pioneers as people who were  "different".

    I agree, they were different, in that they had tremendous courage, vision, and tenacity, to advocate for the rights of ALL people at a point in time when the odds were overwhelmingly against them. However, by definition, those pioneers are now of a certain older age bracket - and their collective wisdom is inestimable.

    Parent

    Oh, the mind reels (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by Cream City on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 02:40:03 PM EST
    at leaving the future of women's rights in the hands of the frat boys like Favreua, considering how those hands fondled the cutout of Clinton.

    Parent
    Im sure (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by CST on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 02:51:17 PM EST
    there was no one like that in your generation.  No one at all, to leave women's rights in the "hands of".  And I am sure he is completely representative of the whole age group.

    Parent
    Ha. Fortunately not (5.00 / 0) (#107)
    by Cream City on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 06:02:54 PM EST
    of course, or I never would have found happiness with the marvelous man I married, for one.  The second time around, anyway. :-)

    And of course, I was not the one making the blanket statement about a generation but was responding to the initial comment that the current younger generation are all so much better about civil rights -- of AAs, of women, of gays, etc.  They do seem to be somewhat better, but changes in human nature of that magnitude do not come so soon.

    Parent

    OMG. I momentarily forgot about (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 06:15:51 PM EST
    Mr. Favreau, who probably wrote the President's speech to the NAACP.  

    Parent
    You betcha' Obama's speechwriter Favreau is (none / 0) (#148)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Sun Jul 19, 2009 at 01:01:54 PM EST
    "Pretty Fly for a White Guy".

    Video: here.

    Lyrics: here.

    Parent

    Cute. (none / 0) (#149)
    by oculus on Sun Jul 19, 2009 at 01:36:44 PM EST
    Boy (none / 0) (#47)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 02:17:11 PM EST
    What a pretzel job. For one, it is quite a feat to take something rather simple, Obama speaking to NAACP and lauding them for their progress, and twist it into a bash against Obama.

    As regards my comments about generational change, to twist that as a being antithetical to Obama's comment about benefiting from the work of past civil rights work, that is not only sickly twisted, but contradicts your own assertion that Obama was a moron for saying that discrimination has diminished in the US.

    You are looking really silly, imo.

    Parent

    Generally (none / 0) (#32)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 01:35:57 PM EST
    Discrimination of those "different" mellows generationally, imo. That is due to exposure, either directly or teevee, movies and literature. So yes, I think often racist, sexist, and bigoted remarks by ones grandfather are met with cringes by the younger folk in the family.

    Also those different blend in with the larger culture over time. The one group that has had the hardest time is AA. Even though most AAs can trace their arrival to america to the 1700's each new immigrant group quickly learns that they are second to the bottom (one step above AAs), and have a group that they pass down the discrimination heaped on them.

    So although it is complex, I do think that the different groups even out over generations. Think Irish, Italian, etc.

    Parent

    Maybe not always... (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 01:48:41 PM EST
    True story from a restaurant I worked in back in my teens:

    Puerto Rican dishwasher to AA dishwasher, "Why are you always so f***ing happy all the time?" AA dishwasher response, "Well, I may be black but you're a PR!"

    Not sure everyone feels the same way you do about this stuff.

    Parent

    Sociology (none / 0) (#44)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 02:11:18 PM EST
    Doesn't lie. It is not my opinion but fact that AA's are the oldest immigrant group next to the Mayflower crowd. They were here as early as 1600.

    Your cute anecdote reveals nothing about the historical oppression of US black families who came as slaves from the 1600's-1865. It is well documented, not opinion.

    For instance there is and has been a great deal of tension between west indian blacks and US blacks. West Indian's quickly came to learn that US blacks were at the bottom, and often incorporated american racist views even though they them selves were 'black'

    As long as Caribbean blacks were able to not 'Americanize' (british identification) their upward mobility was high. Once they lost the british identification (accent etc), they moved down the ladder and were just as oppressed as US blacks.

    Parent

    Ah, but Hispanics were here (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by Cream City on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 02:42:14 PM EST
    as early as 1492, accompanying that Italian guy. . . .

    Parent
    Whatever You Say Professor (none / 0) (#147)
    by squeaky on Sat Jul 18, 2009 at 02:30:54 PM EST
    "White" spanish, and "White" Italians...

    in 1780 there was one African slave to every 3.82 "white" person in the US.

    1790 one African to every 4.15 "white" person.

    Immigrants before 1790, one African for every 1.6 "white" person.

    link

    Parent

    The "ology's" (none / 0) (#75)
    by Inspector Gadget on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 03:51:23 PM EST
    [new] Sociology (none / 0) (#44)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 02:11:18 PM EST

    Doesn't lie.

    I agree, it doesn't lie, but I do recall vividly the hours of classroom discussion in my sociology courses over how the studies were more often done in a fashion to support the opinion held by the sociologist conducting the study.

    It's a pretty difficult field to prove anything in, IMHO.  I know I put as much stock in it as I do polls :)...it's all in how the question is framed.

    Discrimination doesn't seem to have lessened to me, and I actually see more of it in the younger people than the older. Guess it's a regional thing.


    Parent

    Agreed, Observer Bias... (none / 0) (#102)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 05:34:24 PM EST
    leads researchers, and lay people, to misrepresent reality all the time.

    Parent
    I understand what you're saying ... (5.00 / 3) (#37)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 01:55:28 PM EST
    but it's dangerous to suggest that bigotry is tied to some amorphous group of older people.

    There's a Logan's Run-ish tinge to it which suggests that if old people just are eliminated everything will be fine.

    I've encountered may supposedly liberal people under 30 who may lack a surface prejudice, but nonetheless don't seem to have a firm grasp on civil rights issues.  And often express support of positions which would take us backwards in these areas.

    These are position that the socially aware people of my parents and grandparents generation would not take.

    Parent

    Hardly (none / 0) (#48)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 02:22:08 PM EST
    There's a Logan's Run-ish tinge to it which suggests that if old people just are eliminated everything will be fine.

    My point is that through time, values often change. Killing off one group instantly would have zero affect. Part of the change is the fact that generations are able to listen to and reject the archaic views of their elders, while keeping the good stuff often attributed to elders as wisdom.

    Parent

    This argument shows ... (5.00 / 4) (#56)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 02:43:41 PM EST
    a lack of understanding of history which has not been a constant march towards social enlightenment, generation after generation.

    And it smacks of the right wing argument that civil rights would just have naturally gotten better over time.  And the civil rights movement actually made things worse.

    Parent

    A good point which I fear some (none / 0) (#82)
    by Jjc2008 on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 04:06:29 PM EST
    younger people do not get.

    My generation consisted of many types...the George W types, the Bill Clinton types and the Hillary Clinton types.  

    George W and friends LOVED the status quo and hated the hippies and their marches (tho' I suspect he loved the parties).
    Bill was the idealist male who wanted change, was inspired by Kennedy and believed his generation could change the world.
    Hillary was the pragmatist.  Early on, like many of us, she did stuff to enact change.  She spearheaded small movements/marches at colleges to get administrators to get more minorities into traditionally all white schools.  She went to Watergate and plugged away at stopping corruption by being a gopher for powerful men.  
    And she became a lawyer when few women knew we could be one.

    The Civil Rights movements needed all of us.  MLK to inspire and lead, "hippies" and black activists to march and go on "Freedom Rides", and pragmatists like LBJ to push legislation regardless of what all knew would be a back lash.
    Doing nothing but letting our parents and grandparents die off would not, imo, have brought the change needed.  

    Once I remember saying to one of my Aunts, who was disgusted with my generation and our anti war, anti segregation marches: "Why are you so angry.  Somewhere along the line, you, my parents, our grandparents gave us the message that discrimination is wrong.  You felt it as immigrants......and maybe you forgot....but you instilled in us a rejection of discrimination."

    People can say what they want. But we teach our children by our words and actions, and each generation changes somewhat but it is slow.  My generation was inspired to ask "what we could do for our country" and I believe many of us took that literally.......and marched.
    This younger generation is more open minded than perhaps their parents or grandparents, but somewhere they learned that to open their minds and hearts was right.

    Parent

    I think history proves that ... (5.00 / 2) (#88)
    by Robot Porter on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 04:22:14 PM EST
    social change can as easily move in one direction as the other.  Look at the reconstruction period, then what followed.

    And look at how the rise of progressivism was followed by the rise of fascism.

    Or look at the last ten years, when we narrowly averted becoming a police state. (I don't think that's an overstatement.) And we still haven't rolled back all the retrograde actions taken only a couple of years ago.

    Parent

    Well, at least the over-60s dodged a bullet. (none / 0) (#111)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 06:14:22 PM EST
    That is some consolation.

    Parent
    The usual, if still useful, trick (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by Cream City on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 02:38:01 PM EST
    as it engendered a long subthread.

    But the question is not whether the commenter can assess the decrease or increase in discrimination.

    The statement was made by Obama, so the question is whether and how he can do so.  Of course, the question then also becomes whether and how anyone can do so, based on which definitions, assessments, etc.  

    And the more interesting question becomes what would be the reaction -- of the NAACP, of commenters here, etc. -- if a president not of color had said so.  Imagine if any other candidate had become president and said so to the NAACP!

    Parent

    Silly (none / 0) (#59)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 02:48:56 PM EST
    Yes, your point would be that Obama should have berated the NAACP for not doing its job. Because of their work an empty suit moron is now president bringing down the status of blacks in the US.

    lol

    PUMAS rock... lol.  A dying breed, by their own hands no less.

    Parent

    Dying maybe (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by jondee on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 02:57:00 PM EST
    but commemorative cardboard cut-outs are still available.

    Parent
    lol (none / 0) (#65)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 02:59:58 PM EST
    Watch those wandering hands.. lol

    Parent
    No, squawky, my point is (5.00 / 4) (#109)
    by Cream City on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 06:05:22 PM EST
    and not a point that would be, but my point is that it was a debating trick.  Try it on someone else.

    As for the rest of your folderol, it's also the usual, and it also can be put somewhere else where the sun don't shine.  You have got that leopard-like animal on the brain, poor thang.

    Parent

    Oh, but as for your folderol (5.00 / 5) (#110)
    by Cream City on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 06:10:20 PM EST
    and usual other trick of making up stuff that you claim someone else has said, when they have said nothing of the kind. . . .

    For the record, sigh, I think that the NAACP has done marvelous work for a century, and I personally have made a point of celebrating its centennial by donating again to my local chapter.  You?

    Nor do I think that:

    Obama is an empty suit
    Obama is a moron
    Obama is bringing down the status of blacks, etc.

    Nor am I:
    a PUMA, as you so incorrectly have defined them

    However, I do think that your continued need to make statements like this but pretend that someone else made them is . . . well, Freud has a name for it.  Stop it.

    Parent

    What you said (5.00 / 5) (#117)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 06:52:17 PM EST
    LOL

    Parent
    New drinking game (5.00 / 3) (#118)
    by jbindc on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 07:00:29 PM EST
    Anytime squeaky is rude or insulting, we all must take a drink.

    We might be very drunk at the end of some threads.

    Parent

    Might as well.... (5.00 / 5) (#123)
    by Inspector Gadget on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 09:04:34 PM EST
    "You drunk?" is one of her favorite insults.

    Then, of course, there's:

    LOL - over-used effort to let others know she's laughing AT you, not with.

    PUMA - over-used effort to insult those who actually understand what the DNC did to destroy the morals and ethics of the party last year.

    Parent

    The more it is fed, (5.00 / 0) (#145)
    by Dr Molly on Sat Jul 18, 2009 at 11:26:29 AM EST
    the more it thrives. Like a cancer, or a microbe.

    Parent
    Nice Theory Doc (1.00 / 0) (#146)
    by squeaky on Sat Jul 18, 2009 at 11:57:37 AM EST
    But I have been commenting here long before your flock arrived and will be commenting here long after your folk fly the coop.

    I don't need your foolish PUMA droppings to feed, it is more like cleanup.

    Parent

    What Fun (1.00 / 0) (#141)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 11:37:29 PM EST
    Drunk PUMA's in a barrell..  Go for it.

    Parent
    Utter BS (none / 0) (#90)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 04:26:07 PM EST
    Just listened the speech.

    You post of out of context "fact check" is an embarrassment. Next time  listen or read the transcript of a speech so you do not look as foolish as you do now. Not to mention litter TL with such garbage.

    Parent

    ROFL - Next time (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by Inspector Gadget on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 05:51:45 PM EST
    Follow your own advice.

    The segment consists of 43 comments. Of those, 13 are yours. So, perhaps if you had read or listened to the speech before you took over the conversation, you would have been able to limit the thread to just this one comment.

    You post of out of context "fact check" is an embarrassment. Next time  listen or read the transcript of a speech so you do not look as foolish as you do now. Not to mention litter TL with such garbage.


    Parent
    Good advice IG... (5.00 / 3) (#108)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 06:03:08 PM EST
    Especially since my "fact check" comment was a "rhetorical flourish" (nod to Sotomayor for that expression).

    Parent
    Is what you are saying is that you are (none / 0) (#113)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 06:29:24 PM EST
    sorry if someone was upset by what you typed?  [snk.]

    Parent
    Whadda ya mean, seriously? (none / 0) (#128)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 09:49:10 PM EST
    Rhetorical Flourish (none / 0) (#138)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 11:14:58 PM EST
    Think Progress reported on Obama's speech to the NAACP yesterday, but failed to comment on his most glaring, unsubstantiated, over-generalized statement.

    Only makes you look worse when you then attempt to analyze something you never read, save for the cliff notes.

    Parent

    In the not over til it's over catagory: (none / 0) (#121)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 07:24:41 PM EST
    Padres lose--again. (none / 0) (#1)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 11:54:26 AM EST


    Big Time! (none / 0) (#2)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 11:57:36 AM EST
    They've got a few more games over the weekend to battle back though.  

    Of course, I'm rooting for a sweep and a nice losing streak by the Giants.  

    Wild Card fever!

    Parent

    My CO/FL brother arrives just before (none / 0) (#3)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 12:06:40 PM EST
    Sunday's game so we'll be there and then for the Marlins series.  He will be mildly insufferable.

    Parent
    Does he need... (none / 0) (#5)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 12:10:58 PM EST
    ...a housesitter?  I could use a little time in the hills...

    Parent
    What he needs is a buyer. (none / 0) (#6)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 12:12:49 PM EST
    There's a lot... (none / 0) (#10)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 12:18:32 PM EST
    ...of that going around--my Mother included.

    I wouldn't think the mountain property market would be as effected by the down economy as others.  After all, some house in Aspen just sold for $47(?) million or so.  The most expensive property sold in the US this year.  

    Parent

    It is an absolutely beautiful home but (none / 0) (#11)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 12:20:44 PM EST
    about 20 minutes drive from Keystone.  Not exactly ski-in, ski-out; and the driveway is beyond steep.

    Parent
    Language people, help me out (none / 0) (#4)
    by andgarden on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 12:10:39 PM EST
    A triumvirate is leadership by a panel of three. What do we call leadership by a panel of nine? (Don't just say the Supreme Court!)

    The St. Louis Cardinals (this year). (none / 0) (#8)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 12:14:43 PM EST
    Great comeback (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 04:13:46 PM EST
    but I'll say RedSox. Cards are led by a single machine. As for the original question, I'll put a vote in for a Nonumvirate because that has a two fold meaning. It has nine and won't work.

    Parent
    Here's some ideas: (none / 0) (#15)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 12:29:12 PM EST
    Never mind! (none / 0) (#17)
    by andgarden on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 12:32:16 PM EST
    Thanks though.

    Parent
    Ha. Not too imaginative. (none / 0) (#19)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 12:35:02 PM EST
    The Latin for "nine" is "novem."  I think you can do something w/that.

    Parent
    Novemberate? (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by andgarden on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 12:36:06 PM EST
    Uneventful Stage? I think not! (none / 0) (#13)
    by Jim in AZ on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 12:22:51 PM EST
    Stage 13 (Friday, the 13th stage) was certainly unlucky for Lance and his team Astana.  Lance's main lieutenant, Levi Leipheimer (3-time defending champ of the Tour of California, 4th place after yesterday, and 3rd place finisher in the Tour de France two years ago) couldn't start the stage after a crash yesterday.  Went for x-rays this morning and found a broken bone in his hand.  Levi was Lance's lead man, set to pace him up the mountains of the Alps starting Sunday.

    Still, Lance's teammate, Alberto Contador, looks strong and set to win his second Tour. Another teammate, Andreas Klöden, moves up to 5th with Levi's withdrawal; Astana still looks strong, but it puts a damper on Lance's tour.

    It was nice to see Heinrich Haussler, today's stage winner, so overcome with emotion after winning his first-ever tour stage.   That's what the tour is all about to me.

    "Drains." Is this a common term (none / 0) (#18)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 12:33:08 PM EST
    in golf?  Quite descriptive, once the reader figures out what it means.

    As in (none / 0) (#21)
    by Steve M on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 12:37:46 PM EST
    "to drain a putt"?  Very common in that context, sure.

    Parent
    Indeed it is. (none / 0) (#22)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 12:38:05 PM EST
    Especially as it relates to putting.  Draining, sinking--as long as the little white ball disappears into the little round cup you can call it whatever you want.  

    Parent
    Just like water running into the drain. (none / 0) (#23)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 12:39:52 PM EST
    Haven't been watching any of the tournament, but I hope the crowd has fewer of those annoying people who feel obligated to (drunkenly) shout every single time a club hits the ball, "IN THE HOOOOLE!!!"  As if the golfer had something else in mind - water hazard?  bunker?  tree?

    Really have gotten tired of that.

    Parent

    On the upside (none / 0) (#99)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 05:12:21 PM EST
    it's slightly better than the now outdated, "You Da Man!".

    Parent
    John Yoo's new lawyer is - drumroll - (none / 0) (#41)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 02:01:31 PM EST
    Miguel Estrada.  Seriously.

    Here's the WSJ Law Blog:

    Yoo has now turned for help to Miguel Estrada, the powerhouse Gibson Dunn appellate litigator who was nominated by Bush to serve on the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals. Estrada's nomination was scuttled by Democrats, a point repeatedly harped on by Republican senators in the Sotomayor confirmation hearings. (Okay, we can only turn away from Sonia for so long.)

    The Justice Department had been defending Yoo in the Padilla suit, but DOJ has agreed to foot the bill for Estrada's services, according to an article today in The Recorder. Conflicts of interest are behind the change in counsel, ethics experts say.

    "The department so far has been able to provide direct representation in this case by arguing that the lawsuit should be dismissed for qualified immunity reasons, and that remains the department's position," a Justice spokeswoman told the Recorder. "But as this case moves forward, the defendant deserves the opportunity to retain defense counsel that can make any and all arguments available on his behalf."

    Estrada is also defending Yoo, who is now a law professor at Berkeley, in an internal Justice Department investigation of the memos. (Here's an earlier LB post on that investigation, which is ongoing.)

    I particularly like the part about how we're - via DOJ - paying for Estrada to represent Yoo.

    EmptyWheel's Take (none / 0) (#67)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 03:16:45 PM EST
    As a reminder, this means that Estrada will represent Yoo as he attempts to convince the 9th Circuit to reverse the District Court's ruling that Padilla's suit against Yoo can move forward.  And--it is not unreasonable to imagine--regardless of what the 9th Circuit decides, the Latino the Republicans wished had been the first on SCOTUS (Estrada) might soon face the Latina Republicans will grudgingly see confirmed as Justice in the next few weeks for a big showdown over the rule of law. Any bets on whether Estrada makes more money trying to save Yoo from any consequences for his actions (yes, taxpayers will be footing Estrada's bill) than Sotyomayor will make in her first year on SCOTUS?

    In addition to reporting that Estrada will represent Yoo, the Recorder has some interesting speculation from some law professors who have been following the case on why Yoo needs his own lawyer.

    read on...

    Parent

    You is entitled to representation pd. (none / 0) (#114)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 06:30:59 PM EST
    for by the federal government, i.e., us, as the conduct complained of occurred while he was a federal employee w/i the course and scope of his employment.  I'm sure there are exceptions, but the government has apparently not invoked them or none are applicable.

    Parent
    Yeah, I know - but that doesn't (none / 0) (#126)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 09:47:42 PM EST
    mean it makes me happy that we have to pay to defend him.

    Parent
    Oh, I agree. But were I a former (none / 0) (#129)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 09:55:57 PM EST
    federal employee, . . .  Although I had a state court case where the feds wouldn't represent a Border Patrol agent who in uniform, driving his car to work.

    Parent
    Health care reform + Cong. Polis (none / 0) (#61)
    by christinep on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 02:53:43 PM EST
    'Just wanted to inject a word about the House Education & Labor committee vote earlier today on Health Care Reform.  It was with dismay and disgust that I noted Congressman Jared Polis, CO 2nd district, voted with Republicans this morning against moving the House leadership measure forward. The new Congressman was regarded at election-time as somewhat progressive. Maybe we got that wrong. It should be stated that Polis explains his vote in terms of concern about the effect of the House proposal on small businesses.  For me, the ostensible reason does not matter at this juncture (because serious issues can always be resolved during reconciliation.) What matters for me--as a lifelong Democrat--is whether all Democrats close ranks and support the President on reform now. No more kicking-the-health-care-can down the road with sweet talk.  Since we express disdain from time to time for certain conservative Democratic outliers, I urge any/all Colorado Dems reading this to call his office(s) and register your concern about delaying, foot-dragging on health care reform.  (I talked with his DC office a bit ago to start.) My sense of urgency is fueled by a strong belief that this signature legislation could be derailed by a perceived loss of momentum.  And, from a pragmatic standpoint, such a setback could only have the effect of undermining other portions of the President's agenda.

    If ranks are going to be closed, (none / 0) (#70)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 03:27:27 PM EST
    I would prefer that it happen in order to secure the passage of good legislation, and not out of loyalty to the president; we hated when the GOP would just rubber-stamp everything Bush wanted and I'm not about to advocate for Congressional Democrats to become Obama's rubber stamp now.

    For a long time, we have all been hearing about the 47 million people in this country who do not have health insurance.  And for a long time, we have allowed ourselves to believe that it is the lack of health insurance that prevents people from getting access to affordable health care, and with the insurance companies controlling almost all aspects of access, that has been largely true.  What needed to be injected into the debate on a serious level was whether there might be other ways to improve access and affordability and also lower costs, improve outcomes, separate coverage from employment so people would not be tied to jobs only for the benefits, and loosen the stranglehold the insurance companies have on the whole system.  That's what the reform movement needed, but which has largely been ignored, even though a significant percentage of Americans wanted these ideas to be part of the discussion.

    The legislation that is coming out of the Congress is a clusterf**k of massive proportions that is being driven by the insurance industry, which is spending millions of dollars to kill any possibility of a public option.  President Obama has assured the industry that whatever plan we end up with, it will be written so as to foreclose any possibility of an eventual single-payer system.  That is insane.

    I can't help think of the very old saying, "Marry in haste, repent in leisure," as I consider how hastily this legislation is being put together, and for what?  So the president can check off another item on his "Things I promised to do" list?  But won't have to defend in the 2012 presidential campaign because it isn't slated to go fully operational until January of 2013?

    We do need to reform the system, that's for sure; but we don't need to close ranks and get out the rubber stamps in haste so that we can spend decades regretting we didn't take more time, and we didn't do it right.

    Parent

    Reply to Anne (none / 0) (#84)
    by christinep on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 04:10:12 PM EST
    Actually, Anne, I share your sentiment--conceptually.  The reason I say "conceptually" is because it is my experience that complex legislation always requires compromise--and, in the case of the long sought (and always sidelined) health care reform is about as complex, in terms of interests and stakeholders, as it gets. I truly appreciate your comments; yet, also believe that if this legislation is pushed aside many people will get nothing. I strongly supported the Clinton approach in 1994, and that same strong support is now transferred to the present House proposal (the key for me being some workable public option at minimum.) Many years ago when I was a freshman in college, a wise political philosopher and activist community organizer spoke to a small group of us in our dorm meeting room about the "hows" of political movements, social change, etc. That pragmatic philosopher, Saul Alinsky, talked about many things (including the importance of finding where one's personality fit best in the structure of an overall movement--not surprisingly, I identified most with the "negotiator" role.) One memorable narrative then dealt with whether a person is willing to accept "the half loaf." That is a dilemma facing each of us in these types of situations, obviously. On health care legislation, I consider the House Proposal a promising, real way of consolidating incremental gains and getting a foot in the door.  

    Parent
    Doubt seriously that any final product (none / 0) (#93)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 04:42:54 PM EST
    will resemble the House proposal. From the very beginning, premature compromise and deferring to the insurance industry has been the name of the game. IIRC Pelosi in the last day or two has expressed willingness to give more away. By the time a health insurance bill gets through the reconciliation process, most of what could be beneficial to real people will be further eroded.

    By anyone's yard stick, both the House and the Senate proposals are extremely expensive. Expensive, poorly constructed legislation that does little to contain raising costs, expands  the insurance industry profits and limits services provided could realistically close the door on real healthCARE reform. I fear that is where we are headed.

    Parent

    I was struck (none / 0) (#95)
    by jbindc on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 04:50:56 PM EST
    while watching a bit of Obama's presser on health reform this afternoon that he kept talking about "health insurance reform" and not "health care reform"

    We.Are.So.$crewed.

    Parent

    Well, I do agree with Obama (none / 0) (#97)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 05:07:59 PM EST
    that this is all about health insurance.  The health insurance industry should realize a substantial increase in the number of people they insure once the government mandates coverage. It is the reform part of the equation that IMO seems missing as well as an emphasis on healthcare.

    Parent
    Hillary Rebuts 'Diminished Role' Chatter (none / 0) (#62)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 02:55:44 PM EST
    Laura Rozen got to talk to Hillary before she left for India.

    She rejected, however, the suggestion that she wasn't dominating her turf even before she broke her elbow last month. "We had moved at breakneck speed," Clinton said. "I traveled extensively, dealt with important things that matter, went to Congress. I see the president and am at the White House frequently."


    No kidding (none / 0) (#91)
    by jbindc on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 04:26:14 PM EST
    What else is she going to say?

    Parent
    Lots (none / 0) (#92)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 04:30:18 PM EST
    Why do you think she is lying?

    She is not one to mince words. If she were marginalized, what a great opportunity to break with Obama and fire up PUMAS so that she can be POTUS in 2012.


    Parent

    It's always important to fire up that (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by sallywally on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 10:09:56 PM EST
    irrational Clinton hatred, eh?

    Parent
    Clinton Hatred? (none / 0) (#131)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 10:20:16 PM EST
    huh? Quite the opposite.

    Parent
    As long as we're talking about racism... (none / 0) (#68)
    by KoolJeffrey on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 03:22:39 PM EST
    ...I thought I'd bring in a little ageism.

    I contend that almost nobody under the age of 55 cares a rat's patoot about the PGA unless either Tiger or Phil are still in it on Saturday.

    If Tiger misses the cut, ratings for the British Open will tank like never before since Phil is already out.

    Interesting theory. (none / 0) (#73)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 03:47:45 PM EST
    I'm under 55 and I'm going to be rooting for the "old man" currently tied for the lead.  I'm not a Tiger fan at all--especially with his club throwing and temper tantrums.    

    Tiger did, in fact, miss the cut so we'll see about your ratings theory.  I certainly will still be watching.  Heck, John Daly is still in the hunt--that could make for some interesting viewing all on its own.

    Parent

    I'm not sure ageism (none / 0) (#76)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 03:51:26 PM EST
    can be claimed there. Tiger does miss the cut but a 59 year old is tied for the lead. If anything, age proves to be a non factor on the PGA Tour.

    If the final two rounds don't draw an audience it isn't because of ageism, it's because the PGA has sold it's soul with Tiger, Tiger, and more Tiger. So much so that the lead stories and pictures aren't Tom Watson tied for the lead but rather Tiger Woods misses the cut.

     

    Parent

    Sotomayor on the bench, (none / 0) (#87)
    by andgarden on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 04:14:37 PM EST
    audio.

    I don't have a problem with her "temperament."

    If you listened to all of those, (none / 0) (#115)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 06:40:06 PM EST
    I nominate you for the ABA subcommittee.

    Parent
    I sampled (none / 0) (#116)
    by andgarden on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 06:42:33 PM EST
    She sounded very measured to me.

    Parent
    Re Ricci, I'm surprised she asked (none / 0) (#119)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 07:04:03 PM EST
    plaintiffs' counsel:  who are you suing for what?

    Parent
    30,000 Horses Saved (none / 0) (#96)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 04:56:06 PM EST
    The House has voted to expand the range of the nation's wild horses and burros by millions of acres and to block a plan to kill thousands of the animals to prevent overgrazing.

    link

    Nice work. The evil plan to kill off 30-40,000 horses, was concocted so that more profitable cows could graze on the same land... and be served at McDonalds.

    Horseburgers? (none / 0) (#98)
    by Fabian on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 05:12:10 PM EST
    Cantering with wolves?

    Whatever the answer is, the reality is that without some population control, overgrazing will destroy habitat.  

    Parent

    No Doubt (none / 0) (#133)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 10:22:54 PM EST
    But the plan to exterminate them was really horrifying and inhumane. Alternate plans to sterilize selectively and cull, are much more effective and humane

    My take was the cattle lobby wanted the land, cuz its free, or almost free.

    Parent

    Climate change is going, well, change (none / 0) (#143)
    by Fabian on Sat Jul 18, 2009 at 04:48:39 AM EST
    all that.

    Grazing range land are how you use marginal land that isn't wet or fertile or level enough for agriculture.  If drought or temperature increase reduces the carrying capacity, grazing will need to be reduced as well.

    Parent

    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by squeaky on Sat Jul 18, 2009 at 11:12:14 AM EST
    But they were not going to reduce grazing, but replace grazing with cows. Horse have teeth and cut the grass, cows pull up the grass by the roots. As far as I know, this it was politics as usual, and the horses had, for a while, a weaker lobby than the ranchers.

    Things change, I know and american 'wild' horses are more of nostalgic luxury considering that they are no longer in use for the most part. They have too much competition to naturally survive, mostly human, and need artificial protection in the form of legislation, otherwise they go the way of the dodo and moa.

    Parent

    Finding Common Ground (none / 0) (#122)
    by CommonGroundPolitics on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 08:05:22 PM EST
    Can you say something positive about your least favorite politician?

    http://www.commongroundpolitics.net/discussion/showthread.php?t=47231

    The incomparable Bob Somerby (none / 0) (#132)
    by oldpro on Fri Jul 17, 2009 at 10:21:17 PM EST
    has gone to town on Rachel Maddow at the Daily Howler this week.  And with good reason.

    If you think Greenwald handed Todd his head, check Bob's take on Rachel, etc.  "Sex, sex, sex," according to Bob...but not in a good way.

    Sheesh...

    Calling Walter Cronkite...oh, right.  No wonder I watch so much Canadian news, being near the border and all.  Peter Mansbridge is old school and bearable on CBC.